Question:
Is there significance to defecation when training horses in an enclosed area, i.e. Is it nerviness or release?
Monty’s Answer:
Question:
Is there significance to defecation when training horses in an enclosed area, i.e. Is it nerviness or release?
Monty’s Answer:
Question : Are you in favor of training horses with a clicker?
Monty’s Answer:
I was working as a clinician in Springfield, Massachusetts at an event that is a major equine exposition called Equine Affaire. During the course of this event, I was asked to work with several remedial horses. One was brought to me with advice from the owner that the horse was very aggressive and dangerous about biting.
During the course of my work, I communicated with the owner and was told that the horse had been trained with the use of the technique called ‘clicker training.’ She went on to say that treats were used as a reward for the behavior desired . This horse would actually stalk me and charge with ears back and mouth open. He was a four-year-old gelding far too dangerous for anyone except a professional accustomed to dealing with this problem.
While working with him, I said the following words, “This is an example of why I tell my students that I am not a fan of clicker training, especially when it involves rewards in the form of food offered from the human body. I explained that when food is associated with the human body it produces horses that bite. I believe this and hold that opinion to this day. I was able to improve the horse’s attitude in a thirty-minute session, but one could never say that I produced a certain cure.
I advised the owner to stop feeding from the hand . I told my audience that the clicker part of clicker training is no problem for me. An audible marker signal, in my opinion, can be useful as a part of any training system. The clicker is the audible marker signal. The food acts as the reward for the desired behavior. I realize that some people use clicker training more effectively than others and some are downright inept with this science.
After returning home to California, I received two emails from professional clicker trainers. Each admonished me strongly that clicker training can be a very effective method. They told me that I was criticizing clicker training because of problems I had with horses that were trained badly. One of the professional trainers was Kim Cassidy from New York.
After exchanging two or three emails, I found Kim to be open-minded and quite interested in exploring my work. I realize that she wanted me to understand more about clicker training, and I believe hopefully to change my mind about the concept. I invited her to come to Flag Is Up and…lo and behold, she accepted my invitation!
Kim decided on her own to invite another professional clicker trainer to come with her. Linda Pearson from England made the trip, and they arrived on January 11 at about 9:00 a.m. I loved the opportunity to study with these two ladies. For three days we dealt with several classes of horses, raw, remedial and well trained. After returning to their respective homes, Kim and Linda each sent me a letter, and I will quote for you the essential elements of each of their writings.
“During the course of loading and unloading, the filly began playing with Monty and jumping onto the trailer doing little things like prancing next to Monty showing how brave she was. It was obvious that she was very happy with herself. She seemed to be saying, ‘Finally someone is speaking my language.’ I really could feel her joy and happiness…the humans were finally getting it right.”
“It was then my turn, one of Monty’s students brought me a young Thoroughbred gelding that wouldn’t load. The owners relied on heavy drugs to load him. Monty states categorically that he will not use drugs of any kind in the training process. I did my first round pen Join-Up with this particular horse.”
“I was quite clumsy compared to Linda and a complete oaf when compared to Monty, yet I still succeeded. Monty guided me on how to use my eyes and my body to achieve Join-Up…what a feeling! I then worked with the Dually halter getting the gelding to move his feet upon request. I paired an audible click with a rub between the eyes when he did it right. I felt that Monty could appreciate the clicking now that I was pairing it with the rub and not the food. Sometimes we have to compromise to make our point.”
“After a few minutes, I took my Thoroughbred to the trailer and worked on loading him. He was very good, and I got him on the trailer rather easily. We ended on a good note, and we were really looking forward to the next day.”
DAY THREE
“Monty asked us to switch animals, so I did Join-Up with the mustang filly and Linda accomplished the same with my Thoroughbred gelding. We were both successful. Linda worked hard on marking good effort with her gelding using click and rub. The horse was much improved when compared to the day before.”
”After successful work with these two horses, Monty sent Linda to a paddock to get a little bay mustang gelding. Linda brought this horse to the round pen as Monty whispered to me that it was Shy Boy. Linda did Join-Up with Shy Boy and didn’t know who he was until it was over. When we told her she looked like she was going to burst. It seemed to be the highlight of her trip.”
“After lunch Monty brought two mustangs for us to work with. They were quite wild, but soon cooperative. I can’t believe how incredibly giving, soft and perfect the mustangs were. I almost cried when I did Join-Up with mine. It was so moving. It is hard to explain, but mustangs are very different from domesticated horses. I think Monty described them as “pure” and he is right.”
“We took them to the trailer and Linda and I both loaded our respective mustangs. It was really exciting because once they start to give you their trust, they don’t hold back. I think Monty felt great satisfaction in seeing our enjoyment. He truly loves doing this work. Despite being an incredibly busy man with many demands on his time, I think he is happiest being around the horses and training them. The happiness shines out of his smile when the human and the horse get it right.”
“What we accomplished in teaching Monty about clicker training, I really don’t know. If all we did is get him to distinguish between clicker training and indiscriminate hand feeding, then I feel we accomplished a lot. If we have started an exchange of ideas between the two communities, it will be an amazing accomplishment. I really like Monty, and I think he is an incredible horse trainer.”
“Monty loves the horses and that is apparent. He repeatedly stated that respect is a fine line and it is not spelled F-E-A-R. We need to offer as much respect to the horse as we expect to get in return. I believe that Monty has brought to the horse world a new understanding.”
Question: I have purchased a 14-year-old bombproof mare but she comes from an area without trains. I live in a rural area but I cannot go very far without crossing train tracks. What is the best way to introduce a horse to a train? On this road there is about 5 other horse owners, but none take their horses near the trains. Though some own driving horses, these people go on wagon train rides and are careful to avoid the trains. The trains are an infrequent, but daily occurrence. I intend to let Black become accustomed to the train rather than avoid the train altogether. I live in coal country and there are at least 3 spots where I can expose her to trains without interfering with traffic. However, I would like to drive her to the post office, etc. and there is 1 train crossing with bells and poles that come down.
The State of MD is spraying trees to eradicate some bug. I am in the center of a forest. The helicopter flew over my property and directly over Blackie and made about 4 passes within 50′ of Blackie. The spray was quite visible and the helicopter was only about 50′ above the ground. When I got outside she was looking up at the helicopter and watched as my goats either slammed into fences or jumped them to get to me. The geese and turkeys were also quite frightened. By the third pass of the helicopter, Blackie seemed more interested in the hay in front of her than helicopter. My goats would not leave my side the rest of the day but Blackie did not seem to need me at all.
I did not see the helicopter & Blackie at the moment of the first pass, but when I went out to check she was about 30′ away from her hay. I went out as soon as I heard the helicopter and missed seeing Blackie’s reaction by about 10 seconds. I assume she “spooked” and ran 30′ but when I got to the outside she was looking up at it the helicopter not running. She went back to her breakfast. Looked up for subsequent passes but did not stop munching. Can I assume a similar reaction to the train?
Monty’s Answer: Thank you for the time that you took to explain Blackie’s fears. As is the case with so many interested horse people out there, you have answered your own question. There is a test for you. You might ask “Where did I answer my own question?” You did so with the following words “But she comes from an area without trains”. You are telling me that if she came from an area where there were trains that she would be just fine with trains and you are absolutely right.
Don’t worry. We’re going to get through this because I do realize that this simply does not give you enough information. Remember that I often say to my audiences and write in my books. Every horse on the face of the earth is frightened of pigs, unless they are raised on a pig farm. If so, they are perfectly fine with pigs. Most pig farm raised horses love pigs and considers them good friends. There is a lesson to be learned from this phenomenon.
Horses are frightened of anything that they are not familiar with. Their DNA has set them up this way and they simply would not have lived as a species for 50 million years if they failed to think that way. As a child I traveled, with horses, to many horse shows on a train. My horses hadn’t been raised around trains so I had to work out how best to let them know that the train wasn’t going to kill them. I remember exactly how we did it.
Salinas, California has a train track and a depot. It is an agricultural area and there is a lot of freight train loading of vegetables destined for all parts of the United States. Just west of Salinas along the tracks there are some cattle and horse farms. The tracks are laid down in multiples and they are called switching tracks. This means that there are switch engines that move along 2 or 3 cars at a time and park them on the side to be loaded.
After the loading is complete the cars are switched on to the main track hooked to the larger freight train and off they go. We found a dairy farm near the tracks, right in the area of switching. There was high activity on those tracks. We made a deal with the dairy farmer to allow for some horses to be put in the field next to the tracks. After 2-3 days and nights the horses would graze right along the fence and never even look up when the train went by.
Remember that when this was going on we still had steam engines (choo choos). They were awesome, noisy and huge. The trains of today sound like a Rolls Royce compared to the trains of my childhood. Remember also that switch tracks have signals going almost constantly. The signals of my day were called WigWags which was a very large stop sign-like hunk of metal which wagged back and forth on a long metal arm like a giant pendulum on an antique clock.
If you are innovative I think you can come up with someone who has property along the tracks who can assist you. It is well to remember that there are many items at home that can aid you in your efforts. One can start with something as small as an electric toothbrush and work your way all the way up to a leaf blower. Quads can help a lot. They are like a four wheeled motor cycle and very noisy. There are kids in your community that would love to help.
For $5 they will have races up and down in front of your horses stable for a half hour or so. Remember that it is essential to train to these frightening sights and sounds in different locations and at different times of the day. In order to get the job done properly one must do it while on the ground and while in the saddle. Remember to take care and be extremely incremental. Start with the easiest challenge and work your way upward being very cautious not to over match your horse.
If a person is going to be successful in the horse world, you have got to decide what you want for yourself. The needs of the horse come before wanting to win championships; wanting to make money; wanting to be successful internally. It is a partnership. Your horse is critical. His needs must be met first, and if his needs are not met, your performance will pay a price.
We need to know what that horse considers to be a reward. As predators, we know food as a reward. There is, in our DNA [deoxyribonucleic acid], a factor for considering food a reward, but no blade of grass has ever run from a horse. No horse felt the need to stalk down a blade of grass and kill it, and then eat it. Food is just there, for them.
So what does a horse consider as a reward? Often times it is just the ceasing of work. Just stopping. Giving them a rub. Getting off their backs, if we’re on them. Walking them around. Walking away from them is a reward, that tells them that you are not predatorial. Think of innovative ways to reward your horse in HIS language. Which is to say, “I like you, and I’m not going to hurt you.”
Horses are very generous animals. They are ambitious. They have a lot of energy. So they don’t want to just stand around, they want to do things but be careful. Monitor them. Observe them. When they’ve had enough, ease up. Reward them. Stop. Get off. Give them a rub and walk away.
Your chances for success will fall right off the table if the needs of the horse are not met. When you meet his needs, then your chances go sky-rocketing. One can’t simply be conceited about it, or arrogant, when the horse meets your needs. The reason that you can not do that, is that you will start to overwhelm your horse, with your own requirements.
Study. Learn what he needs. Provide those needs and your chances for success will sky-rocket.
- Monty Roberts
Editor’s note: Find Monty’s principles illustrated and discussed in his Equus Online University: http://www.montyroberts.com/university
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Disenfranchisement of a Phobia
by John Calder
Having spent the last three and a half hours and 198 miles driving on rain-sodden motorways back from Keysoe, Lou and I have had plenty time to reflect on a remarkable show and demo. Everyone was on sparkling form, from all the helpers to the core team, but above all, the performers, Kelly, Rosie , Copy and, of course, the maestro himself Monty.
But the final demo was really exceptional. Initially starting from the ground, the horse’s issues were quickly established and visible to all. Monty then opened our eyes to a new and breathtaking concept that he has only just developed and one that those lucky enough to be there will store as a cherished moment. Monty climbed aboard Copy and proceeded with some quite remarkable work from the saddle to work on boundaries with our head-shy friend quickly gaining the horse’s trust and respect.
A form of mounted Join-Up. It was not long before Monty was leading the horse in a calm, peaceful and gentle way. Copy had switched to his working horse roots assuming a low energy role becoming the master horseman’s perfect partner – ice cool, calm, willing and oh so honest. Monty then went to work demonstrating to a captivated audience the use of his concepts (usually demonstrated from the ground) but now in the saddle.
We all watched spellbound as the head-shy horse started to change and understand before our very eyes. It was a privilege to be there and to see this great horseman displaying his skills not only in the saddle but also demonstrating his mastery in working with and understanding behavioural problems. Monty asked Rosie to work with Tilly on the ground whilst he was still on copy and to touch and rub Tilly at the same time as Monty and then completely on her own – it was really something seeing Tilly happily accept what before the demo was totally unacceptable.
This was really a demo not to be missed and to be at Keysoe and to see the phenomenal way Monty brought about a disenfranchisement of a phobia and the clear transformation of our head-shy friend was something to be remembered forever.
Often, when I see people working with horses, it seems clear to me why a horse might be confused. We humans are far from perfect at understanding the mind of a species whose behavioral patterns are so far removed from our own. I wish I could live another hundred years because I believe we will ‘get it’ much better as time progresses. I often watch horses migrate through a road map of understanding as I do my work. I feel as though many of them would like to come back to me a month or so after a training session and say, ‘Now I know why you persistently asked me to do something that seemed scary to me at the time. I can handle it now.’
The horse training principles that I practice and share with you focus on the nature of the horse and meeting his needs, rather than simply citing the needs of the human and setting out to make the horse conform to them. I would like each one of you to eliminate the phrase ‘make the horse’ from your vocabulary. Many decades of working with these wonderful animals have shown me the value of bringing the horse to want to do what you are asking of him, not demanding it of him through force.
There is a movement on this earth of ours to understand horses better and to treat them in a far more reasonable way than we have in the past. I congratulate those who seek information and live up to their responsibility to learn as much as they can about the horses they admire. You are the ‘doers’ in this industry, seeking answers to improve your understanding of, and relationship with, the horses we have come to love. Many people know by now that my life’s goal is to leave the world a better place than I found it, for horses and for people too. You know that I cannot do it by myself. Each of you will realize that if we are to succeed in becoming better partners with our horses, it will take a family of individuals who care. You can be part of that family.
- Monty Roberts
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Learn the language of horses on Monty’s EQUUS ONLINE UNI
“I highly recommend Monty Roberts Equus Online University. I spend a lot of evenings with Monty via his University. It’s very inexpensive and the lessons are terrific, short and sweet, and available forever to review. No Level 1 and Level 2 nonsense. Just good things to know as you work with your horse. And the best thing I’ve seen in years on how to (easily) train your horse to side-step to you on the mounting block… and wait for you to mount. It’s sooo cool.”
Joe Camp
www.SoulofaHorse.com
Editor’s note: Check out Monty’s EQUUS Online University at http://www.montyroberts.com/university